#753  by Billbbill
Franklins is a very good straight forward soloing jam for building on Mr. Gribbles observations. No dipping into any min. or blues scales, and a very light dose of chromatics is workable.

It's perfect for being mindful of playing "over" chords. Keep in mind where you are, chord wise, while soloing to add accent and color, and begin and end phrasing.

The note triad (notes that form a chord) for the A maj chord is A, C#, & E. For D maj it's D, F#, A. These notes represent "safe" points for beginning and ending phrases. Notice they're all notes in A mixolydian.

This is not for the G chord. As you probably know you could play this song without even voicing the G (as Jerry does when he picks out A and D chords at the mellow point just before the last verse.) The G is a bridge between the A and D and back to A so the G note can be played virtually anywhere.

The point is to be mindful of what chord you are soloing over and to utilize these notes when beginning or ending a phrase or accenting a phase with a more "obvious" reflection of the chord.

It will eventually become 2nd nature as you internalize these points. You won't even think about it; some may be doing it already simply because it sounds right.

Of course this is not for those of you who are beyond this concept.

While you can certainly get away with jamming without this in mind, unless you approach this in some instinctive fashion you run the dreaded risk of meaningless meandering.

Here's a small example. I'm not going to note the G chord. It may only serve to confuse.

The 5 on the B (E) is a take off point for a phrase.
The first 4 on the D (F#) is a "touch" point for the D chord change and the second 3 on the B (D) at the end represents the summation of the phrase.

This is faster with some more notes but is essentially the same.


Of course beginning and ending phrases often transcends chord changes. In other words you don't end a phase on every D chord. A phase can have these chord recognition points and just keep going, although it has to end sometime.

I hope this is helpful.

Any input or corrections are welcome.

Note. Please excuse my referring to Jerry in the present. If you believe in eternity he's out there pickin' somewhere.

 #756  by phpbb
I just saw Jerry the other day..

 #985  by jahozer
Now this is where I differ in the way I think of scales and modes. I tend to think of everything as different positions of diatonics.
To me A, G, and D tell me that this song is in D. No matter of where it starts.
I have always known of modes but admittedly was always confused as to where they started. Keeping in mind the importance of phrasing as mentioned in the previous posts, note that A mixolydian is actually D diatonic, but starting on A. See the tank for further discussion on key.

 #986  by Billbbill
I delve into the technical with hesitation. Not my strong suit as you've pointed out. To a certain extent, while you are probably correct, it comes down pretty close to six of one half dozen of another. Especially if we're talking about the same notes.

It's almost moot as the real crux of my point was about being concious of "playing over chords". Early in my playing days I would simply want to know the key and go. As I progressed it became evident that on some level (if not instinctively, than consciously) I would have to be more aware of key changes or playin over chords within leads to add complexity and nuance. I suppose this was somewhat of a poor mans attempt at communicating these ideas.

For this tune I think A while over A and D while over D. Obviously they overlap considerably but thinking in these terms helps me accentuate the chords within the lead. If technically wrong (which I likely am), I apologize to any who may have been misled. I hope the intent was communicated. Thanks for the heads up.

 #987  by jahozer
I mainly was refering to d's way of thinking as far as modes are concerned. I, like you, have realized the importance of playing over the chords (waaay to late in my playing history).
Lets assume we basically both agree that the song is in D. When you say you think A over A and D over D, do you play a full diatonic sequence over each chord, or do you use it as a starting point for something like what d was refering to and play A mixolydian?

 #996  by Billbbill
OK. When you say full diatonic sequence I'm assuming you mean a lick encompassing the full scale, whether beginning with A or D. If thats what you mean I'd say I'm more attuned to the latter although even that is somewhat limiting.

It's very difficult (especially being an ear player for the most part) to communicate this without limiting.

I'm leaning toward the latter because it more closely reflects my approach, even though I may play a cohesive lick over D that while within A mixolydian more closely resembles D diatonic.

This is so because while over D I'm emphasizing the D chord triad notes as start, midpoint, and or end phasing notes. Same for over A (emphasizing A triad notes of course). I'll do this ranging from a fragment sense to a full diatonic run, sometimes exclusively over A or D and sometimes bleeding from A to D or D to A.

Jerry once said that he felt notes have an emotional value.
In stringing notes together one attempts to emote in a particular direction. Putting phrases with direction with other phrases creates the larger emotional content we're all striving to master.

When I first started playing I learned the Maj pentatonic scale or the "no wrong note" scale. This was so cool because it fostered a sense of creativity since it was virtually impossible to fuck up. I really had not internalized any intervals, or anything for that matter so I was meandering around occasionally hitting something good. At some point it bacame clear that I had to move on. Since then it's been a never ending pursuit to create more consciously and meaningfully.

If within this meandering reply I didn't really address what you meant, let me know.

Good to chat with you jahozer. Is yahozer like "you hoser" as in Bob and Doug McKensie from "the great white north"? Probably not but it's what I think of when looking at it.

 #1017  by Billbbill
Not a problem d, happy for your input. If you were starting to sound like Cliff Claven then I'm Reverend Jim, especially when I try to talk theory. I do indeed approach this from an A Mixolydian perspective.

As an extention of that, of sorts anyway, I've found that being more conscious of playing over the chords has opened some other doors. I suppose even though the notes are the same (D ionian and A mixolydian) it's as if I'm changing keys due to being more aware of having my lead have more resonance with the particular chord I'm soloing over.

A simple example of this would be picking out the triad notes of each chord through the progression, which by the way, Mr. Garcia would often do.

This approach also opened doors in terms of workable chromatics. While Franklin's would not be a song suitable for a large dose of chromatics, viewing soloing as switching keys (A to D etc. as stated above) did open up more options for where and how one could sprinkle chromatics.

I can literally play any note while soloing in this song. Now it should be understood that I could not pull off an A# standing essentially by itself, but in a run between A and B while playing over the D chord it is workable. The same would apply for say Ab and Eb among others although the runs that would contain them MAY be exclusive to playing over the A chord OR the D chord but likely not both. F is playable over both between E and F#. Of course I don't mean to imply that chromatics are limited to 3 note runs. I'm limiting for the sake of the discussion. Now I say all this with a grain of salt because depending on how you are approaching these notes almost anything is doable.

Things opened up for me when I broke songs down in this manner.

Now the trick is once these things make sense conceptually, to internalize them and have them flow freely and naturally.

Just like when you begin a sentence, you're really not sure where it's going or the exact way it will manifest, although you do have an idea of what you want to say. You sort of have faith that it will make sense in the end. I approach soloing similarly. It's optimal to "consciously create" your licks but some of my best stuff was while I was "in the zone".

While I've definitely been checking out the tank, I haven't noticed if you've spoken much about chromatics yet. I'll check, but if you haven't, it's a worthy topic. Thanks.
 #1687  by shakedown_04092
Hey Billbill

Thanks for that insight into the Franklins mixo scale. I've just started to learn this scale, and although confusing at first, I find that I am absorbing it much more efficiently than I have compared to past learnings.

The insight you provided further helps me understand what & why I am playing what I am playing. THANKS AGAIN!


 #1688  by shakedown_04092
Just reading your guys' discussion in the last few posts is amazing...I feel like I'm a little kid getting read some great fable of all time....I want more!!! What happens next??? Keep posting here, please...I'm enthralled :shock: with this discussion! I want to learn more...

You folks don't live near Maine, by chance? :cool:

 #1689  by Billbbill
Hey Shakedown,
Glad you found this useful. Poke around in here, there's a lot of good stuff. Definitely check out Kenny's posts. He's the resident theory wizard.


 #3340  by Bobbieshaftoe
BILLBBILL WROTE I suppose even though the notes are the same (D ionian and A mixolydian) it's as if I'm changing keys due to being more aware of having my lead have more resonance with the particular chord I'm soloing over.

You are changing keys, from D (ionian) to A (mixolydian). The tonal center or Tonic of D ionion is D it is not A, and the Tonic of A mixolydian is not D it is A.By emphasizing the D(I) note you are causing it to be the tonal center and the the key is D (ionian) but when you emphasize the A(V) note it becomes the Tonic and you are no longer playing D major(ionian) your are now playing A mixolydian.On paper thre the same but to the ear they are very different.Its all just way of thinking though.

 #3345  by Billbbill
Of course you're right. I suppose I was trying to get the point across of thinking about playing lead over the chord changes w/o the baggage of thinking key change. One could make too much of the concept of the key change if you over think it. Since they are essentially the same notes I figured no harm no foul. Thanks for clarifying.